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124480-please-read-my-ideas-to-help-wildstar-prosper-no-f2pb2p-here-please
Content ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Agreed, but I don't know if NCSoft is going to give them the money for all the PR stuff. With the Drops I would like them to be as beefy as FFXIV; eventhough, I think FFXIV has to be one of the most boring MMO I've played and grindiest, the content in those patches are insane, they're like mini Xpacs. | |} ---- ---- definitely. you are stronger at 80. but not to the extent that you can basically one shot everything. this is a balance that needs to be adjusted, obviously. | |} ---- ---- ---- Asking Carbine to produce more content then they already are is crazy. The game already adds a ton of content. ESO isnt p2w, and the game as grown a ton thanks to b2p I dont see why people hate the much superior payment model. | |} ---- ---- Yeah, normal mobs are not challenging but TBH they where mildly (at most) challenging on my first play and not at all on alts (on level) having a better "training" is partially responsible to that. But still, champions and more importantly world/zone bosses are not trivial and with downleveling all players can participate and have some fun. Rest is just balancing issue about how to scale down stats, and at least, Anet has much easier job with hard (more or less) item/stat caps and no level cap increases. | |} ---- ---- ---- (well that's the "stretch" goal ;)) If primary way to get the items stays like it's now, then yeah, it's a horrible idea, but move that to crating and "hide" required mats behind whatever (balanced ofc) then you'll get items without RNG attached (just hard work), and a better economy. As we are throwing wishes around: Loosing all items on death, that's #hardcore :rolleyes: Well, all of them are Meridian 59/UO/EQ clones in that sense :) | |} ---- I posited and idea a very long time ago that all instance gear should be crafted gear, BOE, but inactive and unusable, and can be made from non-instanced mats. You would then get BOP tokens from whatever level of content you are doing. Combine token into gear and you get equippable BOP gear. Then, you get your craftable gear, but everyone still needs to do the content to use it. | |} ---- Look at RIFT, good content updates every 3-4 months, just as good as WS updates. Same goes for Swtor. | |} ---- Sounds great. Mine was more on the wishful thinking side to get me a EVE-like without PvP part ;) | |} ---- Like costumes and pets... oh wait.... :P As for the living story they had a new one every 2 weeks so you can't complain there was no new content coming out for gw2. Aion is f2p and has big updates every 3 months with more things then the Wildstar drops. f2p might have it actually harder then p2p when it comes to players, it's easy to get into the game but they are not invested in it as an subscription so they need to do a lot to keep the players interested as well and keep them inside the game and playing. If players dont like it they are as easily going to play something else. As for the second part, ESO is doing really well and GW2, AION, star wars, star trek and other free to play games as well. How many p2p games are doing well right now. Wow, FF and Eve, those are all behemoths from older times. And of course it's about the money, it's always about the money as is p2p. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsQNoZxfS_o | |} ---- weelllllll as a P2P game we are getting PETS and DAILIES CONTRACT and TOYS and a WARDROBE. 1 boss in a box, and 1 reshuffled/retweak zone. thats all the content to munch on aside from "crappy vanity items". so yeah... mmo players want that, they LOVE crappy vanity items. i say: put them in the damn cash shop and watch them throw money at you. pretty sure you will then have more money for future development of the game itself. | |} ---- I think the problem with that is that EVE makes gear disposable, even at the highest ship scales. That whole "don't fly what you can't afford" maxim. Games like this don't have gear falling like rain, not when you have large mountains of content to climb. EVE, as a PVP-centric game, succeeds solely because PVP has a balanced difficulty curve. Essentially, you're only as bad or good as your competition makes you. When two people meet to fight in EVE, one loses their ship, and usually the other doesn't. That keeps things relatively balanced in a circular economy. In a game like Wildstar, you can wipe for weeks on one boss, with ALL the players dying. I can see how this would work in a PVE-EVE model, which would have to have an extremely dangerous environment where the entire universe would try to kill you without warning and without safety. I would LOVE that game, I love that feeling of danger that elevates itself from the bell curve and makes you struggle to survive. However, the broader gaming population has decided that difficulty shouldn't focus that way. Wildstar is already broadly described as a difficult MMORPG, and there are a great many areas in the open world where one can be considered "safe". Generally speaking, if you survive an encounter, you're fine. Maybe one day we'll get a game that yanks away things we take for granted like maps, compasses, and gives us more long-range survival based goals. I'd love a game where just getting from town A to town B was a trial and tribulation without using PVP as a crutch for game design. But there's just no guarantee that has a market. I feel I'm a small minority of gamers that are wishing for a game that's actually trying from end to end to kill us. Wildstar is about as close as MMORPGs get. | |} ---- Model(s) don't have anything to do with it. Just like movies, bigger and bigger (and bigger...) budgets are the reason, as they grow innovation and risk taking go down. That's why most off the cool stuff in gaming right now comes from the indie side. Can't agree more. We may not agree about other topics but this is not the one :) Edited April 6, 2015 by nesh | |} ---- ---- 8 posts until a non-B2P/F2P thread was turned into one. Good job. Read the post topic next time. | |} ---- We actually probably agree on a lot more than you'd think. My advice to everyone I talk to is to never become married to a solution because of a problem. Parse every difficulty down to its most basic issues and build a solution from there once you isolate whatever's causing a problem. The entire F2P/B2P solution is an inflammatory solution because it's not a very good one, it's everyone's "lesser of all evils". The conversation never goes anywhere because we end up essentially debating the nature of "all evils". But once you pare down what the actual problem is, you can build a better answer. I've come up with any number of better answers, many of which I recommend irrespective of the population (because I actually think they're good ideas no matter how many people are playing). And those are the best solutions. Another element of great problem-solving is that you disturb as little as possible elsewhere. As an example, the F2P/B2P thing. Everyone uses it as a sort of silver bullet to "fix the queues". To do so, you have to ignore some pretty valid concerns about the model, assume that the queues aren't hurting for players for a reason other than raw population, and assume that there is no better or more targeted response available. I personally hate F2P/B2P. I've gone over and over why I have valid issues with the model. But more than that, I've probably come up with more ways to do everything that model does, and more importantly I've come up with ways to do it without forcing the subscriber base to have to put up with it. I'm not pro-sub, I really am very explicitly anti-F2P/B2P, especially in the traditional sense. I don't think it's a good way to fund a game, I've ample experience and evidence that I feel my logic there is sound. But you'll find I'm actually pretty open to all manner of more intriguing possibilities. There are quite a few out there. | |} ---- (being on the "don't care" side of the payment model argument) From my experience from other games, just more players will not fix the "end game content" for me, even with 100M of players time gate (as in continuous play time) is much bigger one to me than my preference of the payment model. And as we agree, making it easier is not a good solution. Will more players make world feel more alive, sure, but without xp/loot/item/quest objective sharing it will made it more frustrating fighting with others to get them done. More players better economy ... not that much, maybe in the first moth or two (being optimistic), then its worse inflation than ever without much bigger and better money sinks. And so on... WS had it's chance at the launch and missed it, another hit like that and ... IMHO there are still more things to improve (as discussed in various threads) before they can get another big spike in player numbers and keep them. I can only hope that current and future player numbers will be enough for a steady stream of improvements until they are ready for the next big push (expansion pack?). Bottom line is: I'm still having fun playing it even tough I'm yet to get some character above 20 :D and I'll continue to do so at least till I get some to the cap (being me that can take years). But that will not stop me pointing what (IMHO ofc) can be done better. | |} ---- ---- I feel for you. I really think the discussion has wrecked these forums and would happily see a ban on the discussion. I know I personally do not participate in even interesting discussions because of the efforts of a few to derail every cupcaking thing into a quixotic tilt at the windmill. Chillia, Buster? The concern trolling over payment is destroying your forums. Just channeling it into a few posts is not good enough anymore. | |} ---- In the arms of an angel. | |} ---- ---- I think this must be done on the server side though but anyway I'm curious what will happen with healing then. Also rather then adjust one anomaly (you) it means adjusting several things. When you attack a mob and another player with another level comes in to help and then you have another player with a different level healing you it all gets very very complicated All in all down scaling might be far easier since it's already sort of in the game and the feeling of power you or describing is more how quickly you kill the mob and that is the same in both cases. | |} ---- Sorry for the surgery done on your OP, but I wanted to highlight some of your ideas I thought were really thought provoking. I highlighted the main points as bold. Overall very good post, and I hope this thread hasn't discouraged you. Your post was really well put together and presented some excellent ideas. The fact that members of the community will make any post into a pay-model discussion is beyond my comprehension. TL:DR - Great points from a great post, proposing new ideas to improve Wildstar outside a change in monetization. I agree on most points, disagree on some, but got me thinking of new ways to enjoy Wildstar. Those without a sense of humor can stop reading at 2.2.1 1.2: Yes, Please? This pairs very well with point 2.2.1 where players could participate daily in the war between the Dominion and Exiles. However, part of Carbine's strategy seems to be re-releasing leveling zones as Post-Cap Play-spaces. This removes the need for a rally system as the area is populated with max level enemies. But I had some very memorable moments I had while leveling that I would love to experience again without the need to create a new character, and getting rewarded for doing so would be awesome. I would advise against Tasks however. Many of them were 'Kill this' or 'Collect that' type quests that weren't as inspired as some of the story quests. 1.3.3 On this point I disagree. Vet Shiphands seem to give out great loot and the dailies make it more so. I remember specifically running them a couple dozen times just to get a Alien Velocirex. Each time they would give out 10-30g, approx. 500 renown, not to mention dyes, and runes that sold on the CX for a bunch as well. One run in particular made me a few plat when I got a Dark Matter dye and a Fusion Blast rune. Add the fact they can be completed in 10-15 min and you have a great way to get gold/renown. As far as gear, I can't say as I already out-leveled them when they were launched. Adventures should not be solo-able. Vet Shiphands have already created, and excelled in that niche as repeatable solo content at endgame. More difficult and complicated Shiphands is something the community are already clamoring for and I'm sure Carbine is working on. It did get me thinking though of Adventures in smaller groups. What if Carbine made Adventures complete-able for a group of three to five people? I'm just spit-balling here, but many of the adventures can be completed with a tank and a couple dps, War of the Wilds being the prime example. Is that something you can see being an alternative? Group content: Shiphands 1-3, Adventures, 3-5, Dungeons 5 ? 1.5: I feel like this is an excellent idea. Right now, Elder gems is the only currency that has a weekly cap, and while there isn't much on the Elder gem vendor anymore, it seems out of place as a currency now with glory being added and renown stepping up. Your idea of escalating experience needed per gem past 140 is awesome and something I can see Carbine doing in the future. However, the scale would need to a fixed increase, multiplicative past 140. This being done to avoid things like Elder Gem farming like the renown train of old. If this was to be added to the game, I feel like trading those gems for another currency would negate their purpose. Elder gems need a reason to be obtained and to be in turn spent, only to be reacquired by the player. 1.6.2: Love the rep to renown idea, melds well with both 1.2 and 2.2.1 as I said above. Glory on the other hand i feel is fine were it's at. Glory is obtained by doing the content which allows you to spend it on gear to help you better complete the content and get ready for more challenging content. Same can be said about renown and adventures. By adding glory to Adventures, your basically skipping gear steps. 2.1.1 I have a guild buddy of mine that is love with this game...won't shut up about it. Sounds like an excellent game play mechanic, makes it feel like nothing is permanent. Wouldn't work in Wildstar...in end game raiding, your basically punishing the player for using the gear he/she so desperately acquired by raiding. Progression would come to a screeching halt, feuds would ignite over raid members not using their best gear and therefor not preforming at their best. They would voraciously consume, and break, crafted gear, therefor depleting crafting resources sending the economy into a tailspin of super rich farmers selling mats to sweatshop guild crafters. Only for their hard work to just be shredded by system deamons three nights a week. CreDD would skyrocket, as casual players need to spend real world cash for In-game money just to survive and purchase materials hoarded, and farmed by new guilds that emerged to create a monopoly of the market. As they buy/sell/trade and keep all their transactions in a spreadsheet with Wildstar minimized in the corner.....Spreadsheets....miles and miles of Spreadsheets.... *Gasps* Wait...where am I, what just happened....Blacked out for a minute. | |} ---- ---- Well, the common problem can be boiled down to this, I think: there are a lot of bad ideas that Carbine picked up from other MMORPGs, but the industry came up with some pretty bad solutions to try and answer them. For example, raid lockouts. Those were never really good ideas; they essentially make it difficult to do what you want to do when you can. LFR was instituted in other games to make up for it, to make entire raids that you can do in whatever time you have available. Unfortunately, this wasn't a good idea either; raids lost their epic difficulty and scale. The more logical answer was just to lock loot by the boss to a player and institute a manual reset of some kind, so that you can do it in stages as you have time. The OP has a few suggestions, but I think a lot of solutions are trying a bit too hard when other options are present. For example, the idea of rallying monsters. He only addresses the actual problem at the end: that people don't have a "reason" to go back to lower levels to do anything. There is a sense that what keeps people from experiencing the content again is that the players are overpowered. Given how many people have expressed disdain for alts, and that several found the leveling process boring (I'm in neither camp, but I now they're a significant portion of the population), that doesn't seem likely. I think the contract idea coming in Drop5 is the way forward there, because it directly targets players via rewards. I think Carbine's going the right way on that; knowing that the only way to get players to do things is to put rewards at the end of the yellow brick road for them. Rallying would be decent for a smaller portion of the population, but is probably far more likely to be used if rallying down stats scales up rewards in instances. Carbine tune for a specific set of stats, probably the easiest thing for them to do would be to make sure that stats get "capped" in rallied situations, and that currency rewards (glory, renown, EG, Prestige) are increased by how much you are rallied down for the content. Just turn that on for rated PVP and as a high-end option for endgame, then drop items behind high game-earned currency walls. At least then, even if you DO rally down all the time, your gear doesn't have to make things intolerably easy but still appears as a benefit to you. The further your ilvl drops to match the stats Carbine tunes the instance for, the higher the rewards go. So even if you're not using your DS gear in a Vet STL rallied down, it serves a purpose. | |} ---- WTB this please. | |} ---- ---- CoH Veteran Rewards gave subscribers rewards for every concurrent month of being subbed after 3 months, every 3 months; if you dropped sub you had to build back up to your highest badge. Warframe has a log-in reward that gives better loot the more you log in, up to 7 days max. The Day 1 table is sparse, the Day 3 table is good, the Day 7+ table is... mediocre but still good. | |} ---- ---- Rift had veteran rewards long before it went F2P - in the form of a vendor that would get updated with new items every time you hit a milestone. I worked my butt off for the plat needed to buy the Defiant guard costume. xD | |} ---- ---- Good job not reading the post title. | |} ---- and this: Since the main issue subscribers seem to have with Hybrid/F2P/B2P is a cash shop selling things that subscribers would have to pay extra for, wouldn't introducing a cash shop while the game is purely subscription-based be an even worse idea? | |} ---- In a way, yes. Functionally, it's not as bad (I'll get to why), but for those of us whose logic boils down to 15 dollars a month being a perfectly reasonable price for an entire game's development and upkeep, It's one of the main reasons they're here instead of WoW or EVE anymore. By that same token, I've also recommended a cash shop where all items are awarded to active subscribers. If they do that and don't spend much time making the items (one or two a month might take 3-4 people, which isn't a lot of overhead) they'd only be instituting a subscription reward program that only forces a transaction for periods of time the player wasn't around (and thus didn't pay for). However, the main thrust of the argument against traditional F2P systems isn't just that you would have to pay extra, it's that some players would have to pay extra thus that other players could pay nothing at all (and not be contributed for directly by anyone). That necessitates fairly large shops (with very high prices) and a collapse of the player ceiling because those players that pay have to essentially fund the entire game's upkeep. If it was compartmentalized and players played free without requiring the changes to development that make that possible, that also ceases to be a problem. So there are ways to fund players without them directly paying that wouldn't anger the subscriber base, and there are also ways to introduce a cash shop that would be acceptable. Most of us just aren't in a hurry to turn Wildstar into a shopping mall. | |} ---- I am! I am! Gimme mah cash shop, Carbine! I want a cowboy hat with a big star on it, and a mechanical horse, and a weapon skin that makes my sword look like a giant carrot, and a pet electro-frizlet! Cuz, ya know, I have more money than I know what to do with. B) | |} ---- You ain't "us" Tex :) | |} ---- No offense, my Chua Brother from Another Mother, but that road goes in both directions. ;) | |} ---- True :D | |} ---- The problem is that you can have a better subscription option. All you'd need is a model that's offering items up front to subscribers worth more than 15 dollars a month just for the price of the sub, and suddenly a subscription is a better option than any F2P game. I just don't credit most people trolling our Facebook and Youtube comments to be able to do the math on that if that's actually what NCSoft and Carbine did. | |} ---- I'm not rich but I've dibbled into WoW, GW2, SWToR and FF14 cash shops to get some of that awesome stuff. I think a lot of people have at some point and some of them are far from rich. | |} ---- But how am I supposed to lord my vast income over the peon masses unless I can pay for the best-looking stuff? That don't make no sense! If everyone gets the same stuff I wanna pay for, then I'm not special anymore. :( | |} ---- You can always invest in the PCA | |} ---- I'd rather have a Giant Carrot Sword. On fire. A Giant Flaming Carrot Sword. $20. Boom. Sold. Gimme. And Whimsi, I am far from rich. The wife, on the other hand ... she's loaded. :lol: | |} ---- *sits in his rocker and smokes his pipe, staring off into space* Back in my day, the best looking stuff came from doing things in game and earning it. And we were happy, too! We used to have to walk a hundred miles, both ways, to get to the raid. And none of this "I can't make it to the raid" nonesense you kids with your iphones and your makeout parties have, we showed up on time five days a week, and we had to grind up mats for consumables on the weekends! Why, there were times when you had to build a nice buffer for your experience because if you died over and over on a boss, you might downlevel! And PVP? You know how you used to get the best stuff for PVP? PVP! And if you wanted that nice looking PVP gear, well, you had to pull on your boots by the straps and PVP! And sure, you died over and over just praying you'd get on a winning team that wasn't killing you over and over because of a gear gap, just wishing one day you'd finally PK somebody and wouldn't be a pushover. Kids these days, don't know how good they've got it... | |} ---- :lol: This made my day. :lol: You chose wisely B) | |} ---- I don't like that sword.... Now this I would buy: | |} ----